For the next alpha release....



  • @zupahfly said:

    Most importantly, an "inverse mouse" toggle (my brain still hurts), and mouse sensitivity slider (or number)
    -> Inverted mouse is not a natural thing for this genre, not planed for close release.
    -> Mouse sensitivity is nice to have however I think it shouldn't be bother your play too much because it's not speeding up or down from your computer's mouse speed
    When activating a menu (workbench etc), a window pops up, but I have to press tab to get a mouse pointer (switch from "mouse view mode" to "mouse pointer mode"). Please make it auto-switch to "mouse pointer mode" when a menu opens, and when i press tab to quit mouse pointer mode, dismiss the windows. Lots of unnecessary clicks and mistakes will be spared.
    ->When UI opens, show mouse will be there(and it was there and got removed during UI changes)
    ->Closing all ui when you tabbed out won't be there because for some ui you want to see while you move
    ->Closing all UI will bring back you into game, if and only if you were in game and enter with some game object which opened ui(this was also there but gone)
    Also, if more windows are shown at once, they should not overlap.
    ->nice to make them in a good position, eventually most of UI will be one solid ui instead of several ui peaces(ex. crafting table's fee and crafted item will attached into side of recipe ui)
    A crosshair or a dot in the center of the screen to make it clearer what I'm pointing at.
    ->this is intentional so that you can ignore pointing one which is not interacting with current item in hand
    Scroll through the items on the utility belt, with the mouse scroll wheel.
    ->This is there :)
    Until the improved server browser/selector screen is ready, at least remember the last entered server.
    ->nice to have. will be sometime
    Touching an obstacle should not stop all movement in that general direction, but rather make the player "slide" along the obstacle accordingly.
    ->Alpha 3 will solve this problem somewhat or a lot based on how you feel, please let us know when alpha 3 released
    Controller support! Nothing beats laying back on the couch with a (XBox) controller.
    ->because this game is UI heavy, controller support won't be there for a long time.



  • @SLG_K thank you for the clear and extensive reply!

    The one thing that is very interesting to me is that apparently an invert y-axis toggle (for mouse looking) is considered "abnormal" or "unnecessary" by quite some folks.

    I have been playing games since MS-DOS (a lot), and literally every one I played that employed the mouse for looking around included an "invert mouse" setting. Even if there are hardly any settings, there is always an "invert mouse" setting. No exceptions.

    In my opinion, it is the most crucial setting of all settings. I am amazed that it is even a discussion point. Imagine that every time you want to look up, you look down, and visa versa. Now imagine there is no setting to fix this mind blowing behavior. Welcome to the world of 50% of all gamers. It is like denying that left handed people exist (who make up 50% of humanity).

    All the other features I mentioned are secondary and merely my opinion. Invert mouse is not an opinion, not even a discussion, it is an essential part of the controls. In my opinion.

    I'd love to be proven wrong though. Find me one game that uses the mouse to look around that does not provide an invert mouse setting.



  • @zupahfly

    I don't remember any more whether I first learned that mouse-forward == look down from Duke Nukem 3D, or from Marathon, or from MechWarrior 2, or from using a mouse to play flight simulators, or if it was just a natural association, or a combination of all those things.

    I do remember the first time I played Quake, and first encountered mouse-forward == look up. The moment I stopped vomiting I found the invert mouse setting and engaged it. And until last year did so in every other first person game I played. I am forgetting at the moment what early-access game it was last year that didn't have invert-y and finally caused me to switch, but I remember it was quite uncomfortable to reprogram my subconscious and took a long time. And thinking of mouse-forward as up still sounds weird to me even though I am now programmed to do it and would now struggle with the setting I used to need.

    I don't have data on how many people like regular vs. inverted-y. Or if it's quite as hard for them to switch as it was for me. But for an educational game that seems likely to be complex (eventually), I would encourage Eco's developers to at least make first person navigation as intuitive as possible to as wide an audience of players as possible before general availability. An invert-y option doesn't seem like a big ask (but then I don't know much about Unity, so it might well be). For anyone unsympathetic to the problem, I would encourage them to try playing their favorite first-person game with mouse inverted and see how long it takes to become comfortable.



  • @zupahfly said:

    Welcome to the world of 50% of all gamers.

    I'm positive 50% of gamers don't encounter this problem. It's not at all an essential control. I'd love to discuss this further, as to why.

    Also, left handed people make up maybe 10% of the world. If that.

    https://autohotkey.com/board/topic/17828-invert-mouse-axis/



  • @Psycho-Romeo said:

    It's not at all an essential control. I'd love to discuss this further, as to why.

    Please do discuss. You assert it isn't essential but haven't said why. I know it was essential to me for many years. How will you prove it wasn't? Are you saying too few people care for it to matter? Or that the people who care are wrong to care and should be forced to adapt to your preference?



  • @cubewiz Agreed, I'm not sure where I picked it up either, but I can't remember it being otherwise for me. I have tried playing the Eco alpha for quite some time and it hurt, especially without the other usage tweaks I suggested. I won't be playing it again until invert mouse is finally added.

    @Psycho-Romeo In the time you have spent denying it, it could have been implemented already.

    Peace



  • @cubewiz said:

    @Psycho-Romeo said:

    It's not at all an essential control. I'd love to discuss this further, as to why.

    Please do discuss. You assert it isn't essential but haven't said why. I know it was essential to me for many years. How will you prove it wasn't? Are you saying too few people care for it to matter? Or that the people who care are wrong to care and should be forced to adapt to your preference?

    Am I saying that too few care to matter? Probably, to a degree. It's silly to think that majority of players use an inverted mouse for mouse purposes. Go to every computer in a computer store - all the computers there are going to mouse up when you push forward, and mouse down when you pull back. Look at any non-flight game out there. By default, you're going to look up when you push forward, and down when you pull back. Consider that the term 'inverted mouse' contains the word 'inverted' which means 'backwards vertical axis'.

    Considering the camera movement in a first person, give the plane that the mouse is on the shortest rotation possible to become the same plane that the monitor is on. Pushing the mouse down at this point brings vision down. Pushing it up brings vision up. This perfectly logical.

    Where inverted mouse (both X and Y) is used most today is typically when the origin of the perspective is not in the same point as the fulcrum of its pivot - such as a third person camera, or the nose of a space ship.

    @zupahfly said:

    In the time you have spent denying it, it could have been implemented already.

    And in the same amount of time you spent typing this reply, you could have downloaded AHK and pasted the code in.



  • @zupahfly
    @cubewiz
    I understand that people have preference for inverted y-axis.
    I never imagine playing inverted y axis cause my background there was no console.
    I realized that people who played console a lot, usually prefer inverted-y because they think they are control stick(or their head is head of control stick.)
    However, because I was used to mouse movements and look-up, I can't player inverted-y even in console.
    I will check unity have easy setting for that and try to give option for near future.
    :)
    For now, if you really want, the link @Psycho-Romeo posted might be plausible
    Thx.



  • @zupahfly @cubewiz download.jpg
    inverted Y will be there for next release



  • @SLG_K

    inverted Y will be there for next release

    Wow, that's really awesome. Thank you!

    @Psycho-Romeo

    Thank you for the detailed explanation.

    Am I saying that too few care to matter? Probably, to a degree. It's silly to think that majority of players use an inverted mouse for mouse purposes.

    I would never suggest that a majority of players use inverted mouse, I would assume most people learn whatever is the default in the first mouse-navigated first-person environment they learn and then stick with that. I can only say with certainty that people who prefer invert-y do in fact exist (e.g. @zupahfly, my son, and me until last year) and that based on my personal experience I know it to be very difficult to quickly switch to non-inverted-y when you are not accustomed to it. Think of it in terms of accessibility (though I of course understand that needing invert-y is not a serious or permanent disability).

    If Eco were just another game for entertainment, then it's purely a marketing & economics decision whether or not to cater to various minorities of users, and I wouldn't have taken the trouble to jump into this conversation. But the reason I'm so interested in Eco is that I know it can be so much more. I really believe in games becoming powerful educational tools in the near future. When mature, Eco will have the opportunity to teach--in an entertaining hands-on way--about politics, conservation, the benefits of cooperation and competition, and other concepts critical to healthy societies. Even if it doesn't, it will help blaze a trail to future games that may. So I am here for the social good aspect. And I think if developers want to maximize a game's potential for social good, they should try to make it as easily accessible to as many users as is reasonably possible.

    So, for me, even if as few as 5% of users want it, an invert-y option is worth defending as part of a broader issue about maximizing the accessibility of educational games to make them more competitive with pure entertainment games and to reduce issues in situations where students may be required to play as part of a curriculum.

    Go to every computer in a computer store - all the computers there are going to mouse up when you push forward, and mouse down when you pull back. Look at any non-flight game out there. By default, you're going to look up when you push forward, and down when you pull back. Consider that the term 'inverted mouse' contains the word 'inverted' which means 'backwards vertical axis'.

    Considering the camera movement in a first person, give the plane that the mouse is on the shortest rotation possible to become the same plane that the monitor is on. Pushing the mouse down at this point brings vision down. Pushing it up brings vision up. This perfectly logical.

    Your reasoning here is logical and interesting, particularly the part about the shortest plane rotation which I hadn't though of in those terms. However, the role of logic in this matter is very limited. Despite my spending far too much time on computers, there has never been a strong subconscious connection for me between how to control my cursor in a 2D environment and how to control my view in a 3D environment. In my mind (the only mind I am sufficiently acquainted with to comment on), they are fundamentally separate environments with different rules of control, any connection is for me purely conscious and superficial. I am not arguing that you should see it the same way, I don't know how you think. Regarding the term 'inverted' (mouse or y-axis) in game options: it is only inverted the context of that particular game and its chosen default. No game can choose the "one true orientation" any more than you or I can (though they can in a sense vote for one in their choice of default I suppose). Different people will see things differently based on their past experience. In a first-person environment, you consiously map mouse-forward as mouse-up/view-up, while I consciously map mouse-forward as mouse-down/view-down. Meanwhile, what is actually most important is whatever we have trained our subconscious to understand in that context.

    OK, with that, I think I am tapped out on this topic. Thank you all for the discussion, and thanks again to @SLG_K for the generous early accommodation, it is highly appreciated!


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