[Feedback] Current Skill System does not promote co-operation

  • This post expresses my concerns about this game perfectly. There is currently little to no incentive to play this game actively. I actually feel like I am hurting the world given that I am going to need 100x more food than everyone else that is just logging in for a few moments at a time.

    I just wish I could positively influence the game world or other players somehow, but when no one is ever online, except for the couple of seconds they are online to allocate their skills and eat, the game world feels awfully empty.

  • This is spot on! Been finding this myself and, as a part of server with only Content Creators, we're all very interested in the cooperation aspect of the game, only to find that the game doesn't lend itself to that as much as we'd hope...

    One thing would be to fix the cart/collision bugs, which would allow easier movement of materials, hence empowering stores/trades. That is a BIG limitation right now. The collision bugs are annoying (i.e. player to wall/ground/etc) but the cart bugs are actually very limiting to trade and effective movement of resources. I would suggest rails+rail carts: much more effective mining/distribution solution.

    Second thing, and I have mentioned this in another post, is the ability to send work orders to a player even if they are offline. This requires the currency system to be fully implemented: RFP sent, offer received, work order submitted.

    Along with the work order and train/rail system, I think that skill books shouldn't be transferable. This promotes cross-pollination of skill trees, which diminishes the value of "working for them" and selling your services (vs your skills).

    I'm going "long" on this game. There's a lot of potential and the developers seem to be eager and willing to work with the feedback they have received. Fingers crossed for a speed up in the development (especially bug fixing)... ;) I do believe that this game is being marketed as a "multiplayer experience" and I think that is its strength. Trying to cater for "small servers" (3-4 players) or "single-player" should be dismissed and all efforts should be placed on that multi-player aspect that had us all excited about this game (vs all the other crafting/survival/building games out there). ;)

    Cheers! o/

  • I know this is an older threat but the issues are still there and i have a suggestion that actually might be pretty easy to implement, and would encourage more active players, or at least reward the more active players.

    I suggest that while online you gain the sp/day at the normal rate, but when offline that it is reduced to half.

    Personally I am getting tired of being one of the few on the server doing things while others log in eat and log off till the next day. This is frustrating, they are gaining way more skill points per day than me because i cant afford to eat the better food as I am spending calories. After a week someone who logs in each day for a few minutes, grabs their beans, huckleberries and beets, starts 8 wild stew, eats two and logs off gains 108 skill points a day and has that to spend each day. I am working at mining and getting ores and such and burn through calories way too fast to support a wild stew diet so I usually just eat corn while i'm mining and stay at about 20 skill points per day. I eat wild stew before logging off but after I have been on for 8 hours i have lost a considerable amount of skill points compared to the people that just log in long enough to eat. after a week or so the people who only logged in to eat have way higher efficiency than me because they weren't even playing or contributing.

    I don't think the people that aren't on contributing should be rewarded more than the ones actually playing and contributing. I think lowering the sp/day gain while offline by 50% or even by 75% would encourage more people to be on more. This would also have the effect that they will be spending more calories and not always eating the better foods so they would need to focus more where they spent the skill points and would help to encourage a more co-op play style without having a large impact on smaller population servers where players tend to be on a lot already.

    I mean the other thing that could be done but would not be as easy is to actually change the way skill points are gained.... I mean come on eating healthy doesn't make me better at carpentry, actually doing carpentry and getting practice does. I like the skill points for learning a new skill, but for the efficiency i believe that should come from doing. if i am a carpenter and i eat good food but never made a board i can still max the efficiency..... i mean in real life you learn how to make a better board and use less materials by actually doing, trial and error. But like I said that would need to be a complete overhaul, that while maybe would be more realistic would take a long time to make those changes and we are still in alpha so I would not expect it to have developed this far yet.

    Also shout out to the devs love the game its great especially at this stage, and i know its a challenge to balance it but would love to see more co-op encouragement in the play style....even if you lock people to certain skills until they put 75% of the available skill points for that skill tree into it, but then again that would require removing the requirements such as lvl 4 masonry to learn smithing, but you could make them need to get 10 of each ore instead of needing ore and stone.... more focused in the career path, but allow the server admin to determine if they would use a locked skill tree setup or not as some smaller population servers this would be a hindrance and the traditional model may work better.... or allow the admins to set the percentage you must spend in each skill tree before being able to learn a new one...this would allow smaller population servers to set it to 0% and larger ones to set it at say 50% or 75%...

  • I totally agree with this!
    The game has great mechanics for co op, a good economy system, but in most cases they are of no use because everyone can do everything and the skill gain mechanics of favors this.
    I understand that developers do not want to add jobs so they do not limit players development but as it is, it's very easy to learn and do everything.

    An elegant way of getting around the situation without limiting the player development Is to separate skills by trees/categories and add a focus or study system.

    Why are you learning anything and gaining skills just by having a full belly?? It makes no sense
    If you want to be something, you need to study and/or focus on it like in real life.

    With separate skill point for each tree or category we can choose what we want to learn in the next hours, days and the skill points can only be spent in the corresponding tree (That we are studying, focusing on)

    Each skill tree has a CAP, we can study this tree until it reach the skill cap.
    At any moment we can change the focus/study just by clicking the button on the corresponding tree and the skill gain (online and offline) will be for this new tree.
    In this way we will have to learn specific things plan the focus/study if we want to be or do something.

    A system like that does not limit the player development, everyone will continue to be able to be everything, but it will be a little more realistic.
    While one studies butchering, the other studies something else.

    I can study agriculture while a friend studies cooking, I can also focus on or study and learn cooking, but my focus/study in agriculture will stop (pause).

    So the calorie will used to feed the brain that is focused on learning something ;)

    Just a visual mockup with buttons

  • @dreatern that is a nice concept, but that doesn't address the issue really, so they change their focus to carpentry long enough to get woodworking to level 4, they can still make everything themselves just at a higher resource cost.... most them are only putting the bare minimum into those trees already to do what they need...like make doors and windows.....these are very early in the tree and would not take much of focusing on the tree to be able to make it themselves and not use the carpenters that have the efficiency.... they would still do everything themselves rather than relying on others and using commerce and trade.

    In you example there are points in carpentry points, in smithing.... but it looks like this player is a cook, why would they need carpentry and smithing, if others are doing those professions you trade with them for the items you need from that profession. for smaller servers with very few people on them i can understand but honestly you need a way to make the person want to focus on one skill tree and not be using the others or maybe make it less desirable.

    How about you can still gain points as normal, but you have to select a focus, points spent in that focused skill are normal anything outside of that focus other than survival would cost 5 times the points to learn....but you get locked to that focus until that tree is either completely full or say 75% full then you can change focus. Your idea has merits but still makes it easy for someone to switch focus and put points anywhere they want.

    If you don't find a way to allow the admins to actually decide to limit or not limit what the players have access too they will continue to just learn everything the same way, the only thing you do with this is say ah you need to look ahead and know what you want to do next.... most of them already do that.

  • @toxxikz This is another game problem.
    As a masonry, you need to learn cooking to be able to craft a oven.... Why? Oven should be a masonry skill and a mason does not need to know how to cook.
    If they make a mason need to use something made by bakers to craft a oven, ok.
    A baker can "draw" the blueprint of the oven and the mason can use that blueprint item to learn how to build a oven so it will works for bakers.
    Window, door and basic things should be crafted at workbench, [basic craft] 1, 2 or 3 the same way it has board and chest, carpentry should make better and multiple versions of doors and windows.

    A focus system can work if they rearrange the tech tree here and there (With a slower skill gain as this is another problem, with super basic raw and campfire food you can gain a lot/day).

    I believe they don't want to add a job system(the best option.), then it is a bit useless to have so many interesting systems like economy because this is just for roleplay, there is no real use since it's easy to do everything.

    Another interesting way is the Ultima Online or Life Is Feudal Your Own skill system.
    Your skill gain is limited to X (for example 750) and you decide what to do with your points. You can master a skill tree and learn the basics of other skills.
    In the server configuration the skill CAP can be set.
    In game the Town Hall could be used as respec system.
    Paying X(definer by the leader/server admin), you get your points back and can redistribute.

  • @dreatern to your comment:

    "As a masonry, you need to learn cooking to be able to craft a oven.... Why?"

    I had stated "but then again that would require removing the requirements such as lvl 4 masonry to learn smithing"

    This is another case of that, a mason doesn't need to learn how to bake to make an oven...... in real life the people that make an oven may not have any skill in using it, but they understand the concept behind it and can make one.... those type of restrictions need to be removed, but still have it so masons make the oven, you now have created a need for cooks to buy from a mason..... hence creating commerce and trade.

    also still not addressing the key of the game that is missing, in order to encourage commerce and trade people have to play, not log in eat and log off while waiting on skill gain..... only way to really fix that is make it more profitable to be online and reward the players that are online and contributing and not the people who log in eat and gain max skill points they can per day to increase efficiency to be able to actually play in two weeks while others are building the infrastructure and setting them up for success so they can pop in with max efficiency and then do what ever they want without the need of the other players who have been contributing the whole time.

  • @toxxikz said:

    @dreatern to your comment:

    also still not addressing the key of the game that is missing, in order to encourage commerce and trade people have to play, not log in eat and log off while waiting on skill gain..... only way to really fix that is make it more profitable to be online and reward the players that are online and contributing and not the people who log in eat and gain max skill points they can per day to increase efficiency to be able to actually play in two weeks while others are building the infrastructure and setting them up for success so they can pop in with max efficiency and then do what ever they want without the need of the other players who have been contributing the whole time.

    Complete remove offline skill gain and change it to skill booster (increase the rate).
    To gain skill you need to be online, doing things, executing actions.

  • I don't know if i would completely remove it, some people work a lot of hours and still would like to enjoy the get away of the game but cant really be online that much, in the same sense we shouldn't punish them by removing it completely just reduce it to half or 25% gain when offline, that way they still gain enough to contribute while online but they wouldn't be as far along as those who have been online. Right now it seems to reward people for not being online more than it does for those online playing i just think there needs to be a better balance and make the ones that are on more feel less like they are getting cheated and more like they are being rewarded for contributing.

  • oh one other thing with that is if you do reduce the offline gain of skill points you would have to have an activity tracker, so if they are afk for 20 mins it kicks them, right now they can just stay logged in unless the server restarts they will still be there online when they come back.

  • I think reducing offline gain of skill points would be a mistake. At least at this point in the game and if there is no activity that increases skill points. People are not going to want to sit online just to gain skill points and right now, unless you have maxed out learning or your skills there are often many many hours where there is nothing to do but wait while you gain skill points. If people can't log off and do other things they will get frustrated.

    Also if you can't get skill points while offline you have the problem of the more casual player not having the time to get enough skill points to really do anything in 30 days before a meteor come

  • I'll be honest, most servers have the meteor turned off anyways. I wouldn't turn off skill point gains completely while offline, just reduce them, why should the people not playing be rewarded with higher skill points than the active players. Also at the start i can see where it can be a bit tough you don't have many skill points and there isn't much you can do, but unfortunately when people say that to me i have an answer, there is always something you could be doing. Expand your house, redesign your house, gather plants for farmers to gain seeds, check out the world walk around, in a few hours you could have engineering and you could be building roads, or carpentry is pretty easy at the start. If you can't find things to do early on in the game ask other players what they are doing, help them out join in, be a cooperative player. start farming some ore or stone for when you do get those efficiencies up.

    Plus I believe the key is to let the admin of the server decide if they want to decrease skill point gain while offline and by how much.... that makes much more sense to me.

  • I don't think you really can say that most servers have the meteor turned off. Right now not all servers are displayed in the browser and you can't tell there unless it says they are off. Just looking at the number of servers my company hosts - the majority have meteors turned on. Besides the meteor is part of the game. You can't put that and in and then be silly enough to code against "no on will turn the meteor on".

  • i have played on a multitude of servers from time to time and most i have played on the meteor is turned off, but you are correct that does not mean all......hence make the percentage of skill points gained while offline configurable by the server admin, they can chose anywhere from 100% to 0% , that allows the server admin to control it and use it appropriately for how they have their server setup and configured.

    I wouldn't want to set this at a set percentage but an adjustable percentage by the admins as you are correct lower population servers or servers that are using the meteor may not want to lower the offline points, while some of the larger servers with many active players may want to use this to reward the active players so they do not feel disappointed when a player comes on buys food from an active player eats it and logs off, comes back each day does the same thing and in 2 weeks decides to become more active and has 3 times the skill points the active players have.

    Also if it is configurable the admin can have it at 100% gain while offline for say the first week then change it to 75% gain for the second and 50% for the third, they could adjust it to the needs of their specific server.

  • So far, I've seen a lot of advice coming from adding/removing skill point gain as a reward/penalty, and it doesn't address the original issue of player absenteeism.

    The heart of the matter is: This game rewards one who has no aspirations to build big and minimize calorie burn. Humans in real life do not do that - our muscles may devour more, but exercise brings proficiency, and brains gain finesse and knowledge through repeated use.

    It's not whether we should be online or offline to get skills - our actions in game need to be rewarded.

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