For the next alpha release....


  • Hi All!

    First of all, I love the concept of the game and it was really cool to play this first alpha version. The art I've seen so far shows me that you are heading in what I believe is the right direction.

    While playing the alpha I ran into a number of things that should really be added/changed for the next release.

    • Most importantly, an "inverse mouse" toggle (my brain still hurts), and mouse sensitivity slider (or number)
    • When activating a menu (workbench etc), a window pops up, but I have to press tab to get a mouse pointer (switch from "mouse view mode" to "mouse pointer mode"). Please make it auto-switch to "mouse pointer mode" when a menu opens, and when i press tab to quit mouse pointer mode, dismiss the windows. Lots of unnecessary clicks and mistakes will be spared.
    • Also, if more windows are shown at once, they should not overlap.
    • A crosshair or a dot in the center of the screen to make it clearer what I'm pointing at.
    • Scroll through the items on the utility belt, with the mouse scroll wheel.
    • Until the improved server browser/selector screen is ready, at least remember the last entered server.
    • Touching an obstacle should not stop all movement in that general direction, but rather make the player "slide" along the obstacle accordingly.
    • Controller support! Nothing beats laying back on the couch with a (XBox) controller.

    There are of course many more things to be improved, it's an alpha version! But these should be pretty simple to implement and would improve the gameplay tremendously (for me anyways).

    Thank you for making this game! It is a hell of a challenge but I'm sure you will make something beautiful out of it.


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  • When you mention "inverse mouse", are you saying that for you the mouse is inverted in the current build? (that is, you look down when you move the mouse up and vice-versa?) If so, I think that might be a specific glitch you're experiencing; my mouse control was mapped normally.



  • He means a setting to invert the mouse. Some people actually like it that way...

    I play tons of game an watch alot of anime.

    "Plenty of time to sleep when you are dead"
    Gustav Graves(



  • @Cubic-John @delenca

    I indeed meant a setting to invert the vertical mouse movement, which is very common in games. I am one of those people who likes it that way ;)

    Strangely, I don't like it when using a (xbox) controller, but with the mouse I just instinctively move the mouse in the inverted way.



  • @zupahfly said:

    Most importantly, an "inverse mouse" toggle (my brain still hurts), and mouse sensitivity slider (or number)
    When activating a menu (workbench etc), a window pops up, but I have to press tab to get a mouse pointer (switch from "mouse view mode" to "mouse pointer mode"). Please make it auto-switch to "mouse pointer mode" when a menu opens, and when i press tab to quit mouse pointer mode, dismiss the windows. Lots of unnecessary clicks and mistakes will be spared.
    Also, if more windows are shown at once, they should not overlap.
    A crosshair or a dot in the center of the screen to make it clearer what I'm pointing at.
    Scroll through the items on the utility belt, with the mouse scroll wheel.
    Until the improved server browser/selector screen is ready, at least remember the last entered server.
    Touching an obstacle should not stop all movement in that general direction, but rather make the player "slide" along the obstacle accordingly.
    Controller support! Nothing beats laying back on the couch with a (XBox) controller.

    Honestly inverse mouse is not common, especially for this genre. If it takes longer than seconds to implement I can't imagine it would be worth the time.

    Devs, please please please do NOT force close all windows when exiting mouse mode. I cannot stress this enough. Being able to move with the windows open is EXTREMELY BENEFICIAL. Did you know you can just walk away from a work station and all the windows will close automatically? This implementation is superior to forcing all windows closed with tab in my opinion.

    There's nothing wrong with overlapping windows.

    I personally like the no crosshair aspect to the game. Makes hunting feel more rewarding.

    I wouldn't mind scrolling through the hotbar with mouse wheel, though bet there could be a better functionality for the mouse wheel than that.

    Regarding server name, like point 1, unless it takes longer than seconds it's not worth building functionality that can be made redundant by copy and pasting from a notepad.

    The collision box should absolutely have some small degree of sliding, but making the player get caught on stuff can be really good too. It gives value to a more open or intelligently designed building or area, rather than maximum efficiency cramped minimalistic wood cubes. For this reason I think it should stay.

    Never have seen the appeal for controllers in first person games. I see no reason to need to spend dev time on making controller support (especially in alpha) when there's software online that can already do this.

    Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.



  • Good points, a lot of these are filed currently and we can keep adding more.



  • @zupahfly +1, great suggestions.

    @Psycho-Romeo Wow. In case you're not just trolling: Invert mouse is incredibly important to the people that need it. Please provide data that shows it's not common; Among the games I play it certainly is. Actually, nevermind, please don't post data. It doesn't matter if it's common. Invert mouse is a really, really helpful feature for some people; it's got a high probability of being super easy to implement (at least compared to other features); and it won't hurt you a bit if it's added.

    And there certainly IS something wrong with windows that start overlapped -- you need to move the one on top somewhere else before you can use the one underneath. The couple of seconds it takes you to move that top window multiplied by every time you use a workbench adds up to irritation, especially if there was enough screen to not need to overlap them.

    Personally,. I don't see how it is at all "EXTREMELY BENEFICIAL" to be able to move with workbench windows open. In game I have not needed that feature at all so far. Instead I find myself annoyed that I must either navigate to a door without being able to see it (because there's an open workbench window blocking my view) or having to close the window manually, which is not really so much work, but it gets annoying the 100th time or if you're trying to hurry. What I think would be great would be if when you tab to movement mode all windows disappeared, but then when you tabbed back out of movement mode, all windows that were for things still close by would appear exactly where they were on the screen when they closed.



  • @JohnK That is great to hear! Thanks :)

    @cubewiz Thanks! I couldn't have said it better myself.

    Using workbenches and removing/placing blocks will be incredibly repetitive in a game like this, which is fine as long as it is optimized and streamlined to reduce clicks and mistakes etc.

    Just to summarize:

    • One keypress to open the workbench menu's and enter "mouse pointer mode"
    • All windows available immediately without needing remove window overlap
    • One keypress to close workbench menu's and enter "mouse look mode"

    Thanks :)



  • @cubewiz said:

    What I think would be great would be if when you tab to movement mode all windows disappeared, but then when you tabbed back out of movement mode, all windows that were for things still close by would appear exactly where they were on the screen when they closed.

    Intersting idea, would require you still be next to the tables you were using, but I like it.



  • @cubewiz said:

    trolling

    Wow. Okay.

    Your first point seems to have dismantled itself. I'll forgive the quip since you've saved me the work of formulating an argument.

    Regarding your second point, no - there's nothing wrong with windows that overlap. The most useful or least intrusive windows should be on top of course, but having windows appearing overlapping with each other rather than shoved off the side of the screen is superior in my opinion. Some people don't have large monitors. Seeing as you want to cater to people who play with inverted mouse in alpha, certainly you'd want to cater to those with small monitors/play spaces hm?

    The click you'll save by having windows spread out is worth about as much as the mouse movement to get to a further away window.

    In multi-player servers, being able to move out of the way while in a workstation is a common need when sharing a cramped room. Though, your third point addresses this in a clean enough way, in my opinion.

    Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.



  • @Psycho-Romeo OK, I apologize. If your argument against an invert mouse feature only applies to the alpha version as you hint, then I certainly agree with you that it's not as pressing a concern as other things. People playing during alpha are probably motivated enough to fight through the disorientation of always looking up when they mean to look down for a while. My shocked reaction was because I thought you were arguing to never implement it. Reading back, I see that I overlooked OP's emphasis on wanting these features in next alpha.

    I also agree that of course there is nothing inherently wrong with windows overlapping. I hope I didn't seem to suggest that the user not be allowed to overlap windows if they want! I am only trying to say that when windows first pop up, they shouldn't start with important controls obscured if at all possible. After that, the user should be able to move the window whereever they like and the game should remember where they put it the next time it pops up.



  • well everything is supposed to change =) so dont worry about those issues .. if i am not wrong unity game menu ( that little window you get before the game launches) has some keybindings working already and later it will be fixed properly. for now the game is still in its very early stages =)



  • @zupahfly said:

    Most importantly, an "inverse mouse" toggle (my brain still hurts), and mouse sensitivity slider (or number)
    -> Inverted mouse is not a natural thing for this genre, not planed for close release.
    -> Mouse sensitivity is nice to have however I think it shouldn't be bother your play too much because it's not speeding up or down from your computer's mouse speed
    When activating a menu (workbench etc), a window pops up, but I have to press tab to get a mouse pointer (switch from "mouse view mode" to "mouse pointer mode"). Please make it auto-switch to "mouse pointer mode" when a menu opens, and when i press tab to quit mouse pointer mode, dismiss the windows. Lots of unnecessary clicks and mistakes will be spared.
    ->When UI opens, show mouse will be there(and it was there and got removed during UI changes)
    ->Closing all ui when you tabbed out won't be there because for some ui you want to see while you move
    ->Closing all UI will bring back you into game, if and only if you were in game and enter with some game object which opened ui(this was also there but gone)
    Also, if more windows are shown at once, they should not overlap.
    ->nice to make them in a good position, eventually most of UI will be one solid ui instead of several ui peaces(ex. crafting table's fee and crafted item will attached into side of recipe ui)
    A crosshair or a dot in the center of the screen to make it clearer what I'm pointing at.
    ->this is intentional so that you can ignore pointing one which is not interacting with current item in hand
    Scroll through the items on the utility belt, with the mouse scroll wheel.
    ->This is there :)
    Until the improved server browser/selector screen is ready, at least remember the last entered server.
    ->nice to have. will be sometime
    Touching an obstacle should not stop all movement in that general direction, but rather make the player "slide" along the obstacle accordingly.
    ->Alpha 3 will solve this problem somewhat or a lot based on how you feel, please let us know when alpha 3 released
    Controller support! Nothing beats laying back on the couch with a (XBox) controller.
    ->because this game is UI heavy, controller support won't be there for a long time.



  • @SLG_K thank you for the clear and extensive reply!

    The one thing that is very interesting to me is that apparently an invert y-axis toggle (for mouse looking) is considered "abnormal" or "unnecessary" by quite some folks.

    I have been playing games since MS-DOS (a lot), and literally every one I played that employed the mouse for looking around included an "invert mouse" setting. Even if there are hardly any settings, there is always an "invert mouse" setting. No exceptions.

    In my opinion, it is the most crucial setting of all settings. I am amazed that it is even a discussion point. Imagine that every time you want to look up, you look down, and visa versa. Now imagine there is no setting to fix this mind blowing behavior. Welcome to the world of 50% of all gamers. It is like denying that left handed people exist (who make up 50% of humanity).

    All the other features I mentioned are secondary and merely my opinion. Invert mouse is not an opinion, not even a discussion, it is an essential part of the controls. In my opinion.

    I'd love to be proven wrong though. Find me one game that uses the mouse to look around that does not provide an invert mouse setting.



  • @zupahfly

    I don't remember any more whether I first learned that mouse-forward == look down from Duke Nukem 3D, or from Marathon, or from MechWarrior 2, or from using a mouse to play flight simulators, or if it was just a natural association, or a combination of all those things.

    I do remember the first time I played Quake, and first encountered mouse-forward == look up. The moment I stopped vomiting I found the invert mouse setting and engaged it. And until last year did so in every other first person game I played. I am forgetting at the moment what early-access game it was last year that didn't have invert-y and finally caused me to switch, but I remember it was quite uncomfortable to reprogram my subconscious and took a long time. And thinking of mouse-forward as up still sounds weird to me even though I am now programmed to do it and would now struggle with the setting I used to need.

    I don't have data on how many people like regular vs. inverted-y. Or if it's quite as hard for them to switch as it was for me. But for an educational game that seems likely to be complex (eventually), I would encourage Eco's developers to at least make first person navigation as intuitive as possible to as wide an audience of players as possible before general availability. An invert-y option doesn't seem like a big ask (but then I don't know much about Unity, so it might well be). For anyone unsympathetic to the problem, I would encourage them to try playing their favorite first-person game with mouse inverted and see how long it takes to become comfortable.



  • @zupahfly said:

    Welcome to the world of 50% of all gamers.

    I'm positive 50% of gamers don't encounter this problem. It's not at all an essential control. I'd love to discuss this further, as to why.

    Also, left handed people make up maybe 10% of the world. If that.

    https://autohotkey.com/board/topic/17828-invert-mouse-axis/

    Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.



  • @Psycho-Romeo said:

    It's not at all an essential control. I'd love to discuss this further, as to why.

    Please do discuss. You assert it isn't essential but haven't said why. I know it was essential to me for many years. How will you prove it wasn't? Are you saying too few people care for it to matter? Or that the people who care are wrong to care and should be forced to adapt to your preference?



  • @cubewiz Agreed, I'm not sure where I picked it up either, but I can't remember it being otherwise for me. I have tried playing the Eco alpha for quite some time and it hurt, especially without the other usage tweaks I suggested. I won't be playing it again until invert mouse is finally added.

    @Psycho-Romeo In the time you have spent denying it, it could have been implemented already.

    Peace



  • @cubewiz said:

    @Psycho-Romeo said:

    It's not at all an essential control. I'd love to discuss this further, as to why.

    Please do discuss. You assert it isn't essential but haven't said why. I know it was essential to me for many years. How will you prove it wasn't? Are you saying too few people care for it to matter? Or that the people who care are wrong to care and should be forced to adapt to your preference?

    Am I saying that too few care to matter? Probably, to a degree. It's silly to think that majority of players use an inverted mouse for mouse purposes. Go to every computer in a computer store - all the computers there are going to mouse up when you push forward, and mouse down when you pull back. Look at any non-flight game out there. By default, you're going to look up when you push forward, and down when you pull back. Consider that the term 'inverted mouse' contains the word 'inverted' which means 'backwards vertical axis'.

    Considering the camera movement in a first person, give the plane that the mouse is on the shortest rotation possible to become the same plane that the monitor is on. Pushing the mouse down at this point brings vision down. Pushing it up brings vision up. This perfectly logical.

    Where inverted mouse (both X and Y) is used most today is typically when the origin of the perspective is not in the same point as the fulcrum of its pivot - such as a third person camera, or the nose of a space ship.

    @zupahfly said:

    In the time you have spent denying it, it could have been implemented already.

    And in the same amount of time you spent typing this reply, you could have downloaded AHK and pasted the code in.

    Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.



  • @zupahfly
    @cubewiz
    I understand that people have preference for inverted y-axis.
    I never imagine playing inverted y axis cause my background there was no console.
    I realized that people who played console a lot, usually prefer inverted-y because they think they are control stick(or their head is head of control stick.)
    However, because I was used to mouse movements and look-up, I can't player inverted-y even in console.
    I will check unity have easy setting for that and try to give option for near future.
    :)
    For now, if you really want, the link @Psycho-Romeo posted might be plausible
    Thx.



  • @zupahfly @cubewiz download.jpg
    inverted Y will be there for next release


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