Skill Point Gains Should Be Detached from the Calorie Bar.
Hi, I bought this game a few days ago, I've been enjoying it for the most part but the way I see people playing has highlighted a big problem with the way Eco gives players skill points, especially in the "early game".
The put the problem in a nutshell: Eco encourages players to not play Eco.
More specifically, it encourages you to either AFK or logout so you can gain skill points without using all the food you have.
Attaching skill gains to your "fuel" encourages you to conserve that fuel for skill gains, suddenly its not the fuel you have for performing actions, its the fuel you need to increase your capacity for performing actions.
"I need some wood, stone and iron.
I just ate the best quality food I have left though.
Do I use up all these calories on gathering the things I need?
But if I eat the lower quality food to replenish my calories after that my skill points per day will go down.
I'll just log out or afk and get that stuff when I have the skill points for some more efficiency."
A system that encourages not playing is a bad system. Without efficiency skills, everything in this game takes a laughable amount of energy, I've chopped down many trees and can assure you it doesn't take 1/3 of your total energy. So of course afking until you have that efficiency seems like the smartest route to take.
Maybe attach skill points to actually performing actions, rather than having the fuel required to perform them. Encourage playing rather than not playing.
In fairness, the aspect of being able to gain skill points from building furniture in your house is a part of that detachment process you are talking about. I hope stuff like that happens in the future with other aspects of the game.
Indeed, I'm seeing people do that AFK stuff to get skill points right now while neglecting their house, and I'm racing ahead of them in terms of skill point generation. It was a whole lot of work to set up a house, but it was very much worth the effort.
And no, building a house with multiple rooms and putting in furniture wasn't a late game feature. My house was complete with 50 sp/day by the end of day one on a vanilla server (no special features turned on and no scrolls/books given to me either). It took me a week to get to that level with food.
Like I said, I hope more features like a home bonus get added to the game. I don't know precisely what they could be or how to encourage other professions to get some credit besides cooks or carpenters, but something specific like building a road to a road network and getting bonuses from being "connected" to a neighbor might be one of them where perhaps even the quality of the road (dirt vs. asphalt) might make a difference.
There are some alternative ways that skill points can and should be generated.
have no problem eating best tier food and doing work, upgrading the proper things you do most, help a lot , at 118 sp a day with the 50 point housing bonus , elk tacos and turkey xD , be the server carpenter/cook and you'll have no problems doing anything else you want to do
King Korihor: Personally I'm new to the game and still don't know what counts as furniture towards that bonus. I bought a few items I thought were furniture but it turned out only half of them were.
I also don't understand what "balanced house" means.
TimmayTim: I specified I've noticed this is more an early game issue, nobody on my current server has even unlocked the top tier of food yet. A lot of people are only logging in to replenish calories until they can afford the skills for things like that.
I've also noticed a group of people who play on every server I have joined to avoid the wait for skill points. They just do a bit of work on a different server while each of their characters is gaining points.
It's a tricky thing to balance, and we're trying something new with it (havent seen a system like this in another game). It does incentivize you to take breaks if you want to conserve on resources, but there's a number of things you can do that don't consume calories. Plus you can always do the work and eat more food, its more expensive but with more labor youll be able to afford it, in theory.
The contract system also helps with this, you can setup jobs for others to do that are high calorie cost, and you stick to the ones that you're efficient at.
Here is a simple overview of furniture:
There are five kinds of rooms: A living room, a bathroom, a bedroom, a kitchen, and a "general room".
A small table designates a room as a living room
A latrine makes it a bathroom
A bed (there are several) makes it a bedroom
Most cooking stuff (except the fire) make it a kitchen. An easy one to start is the Butchery Table and doesn't cost much in skill points to create
A general room is a room with none of the above
Each of these needs to be in its own "room", meaning something with four walls and no openings larger than two high by one wide on doors or a couple small windows one block high. That means separate rooms. Also don't mix furniture like what goes in a kitchen and add a latrine... as that destroys the room bonus. Also, don't put in "industrial" stuff like a blast furnace or bloomery and put those in yet another room.
To balance the house, you simply need to make sure that the point total for furniture in each room is roughly the same. Sort of like the nutrition bonus.
Doing all that, you can easily get to 50 skill points per day for just your house. That goes a long way and really helps avoiding the dire need of relying strictly on nutrition for skill point gain.
I wish there were more ways to do this like having skill points for clothing or as I mentioned being on a road network. This is something which really needs to be expanded a whole lot more so food prep isn't seen as the only way to get those skill points.
I hope that helps to understand. And it is indeed possible to make this very useful.
Thanks, that's the most information on the housing system I've seen anywhere.
Indeed nice job describing it king, also i'd like to add the housing points are super buggy currently, i always log on to having to go to every room and pick up an item and replace it for my points to go back to 50 which is super annoying(since not all my rooms are in same house) also why i stopped playing for a bit :) got really annoying having to do it which seems to happen randomly even while online,
Where I have the problem is simply getting the game to recognize that a room is a room after a server reset. That is the super buggy aspect, and I think it is a larger issue than just housing (which I think is by itself working just fine). I've had similar issues with the carpeter's table where the sawmill doesn't get recognized until after I take it out with a hammer and put it back down.
Similarly a room under my house made of bricks holding my blast furnace kept bugging out where again after a server reset I would need to take a brick out and put it back simply to get a batch of steel to continue getting processed.
Also, if you have a tree growing through a wall, it can do some screwy things with what might be a room or not. That may have even been the source of many of your "super buggy" problems too.
I'll admit it is a complicated programming challenge to recognize that a room is in fact a room in a 3D space in real time. I'm impressed that the devs got it there, but one thing I really don't think they've screwed up at all is the housing point system itself as long as a room is recognized as a room. Since you do need so many different rooms and random stuff (of all types, not just housing furniture) bugs out from time to time, it can impact the house value.
Oh.... one more thing I forgot to address: Every "room" needs to be on property you've claimed with claim flags under your name. Sharing a house with another player means they (or whoever has the room) gets the housing points and not you. You can have separate "wings" of a "base" where you have common equipment shared like a workbench, blast furnace, etc. , but the housing stuff must be on claimed property that you personally own. Plan accordingly.
Also there is plenty of things to do in the early game... Mine ores, gather resources. You can spend hours doing that. While your points gain up
I.e. if you are going into mining and stuff. Either start now storing ores or looking for the ore blocks in the world. Perhaps start builsing a workshop, work on your house and start pre storing resources. There have been many time where chopping down trees for wood has eventually come in handy. Clear cut an area whilebyou wait for points and then when you get those points go off and get what else you need done while the forest regrows
Chaorfighter I think you missed my point. The issue I was pointing out was that this is the only game that makes you choose whether you want to gain skill points or go do all that mining and wood chopping you mentioned. If people are low on quality food (like when farms aren't ready to harvest yet) they just log out or afk to conserve calories because everybody will prioritise long term skill point gains over gathering.
The fact that eating lower calorie foods also penalises you with a lower skill gain rate means most people just wait until they have access to the better quality food again before they use any calories on labour.
@Newton last server i was on i was able to have 35 skill points a day just off of basic foods and campfire recipes. I was able to mine and cut constantly just by picking wild foods. I had a 5x5 of corn, wheat, beats, beans and blueberries. Everything else i scavenged from the wild. You just have to find a good balance and rush to try and get your campfire soup amd stew i think it is. Then you are good tongo. I was at 35 a day on day 2 with no housing bonus
@chaorfighter i was burning almost 60000 calories a day playing and still managed. Its 100% doable. I wouldnt say long term it ia but for the first week of play yes it is
All of this just became irrelevant with 6.4 because skills are a garbage fire now and I'm not playing anymore.
@Newton Skills have become a bit of a nightmare I agree. A good old fashioned tech tree with specializations would have been preferable to what we have now. In terms of UI at least. Because this is basically how it works already.
As for the exponential skill increase, it needs to be way lower. It should scale with the rate of gaining more skills due to nutrition and housing (with furniture).
@chaorfighter Agreed.. this was a terrible choice.. I think its great to have specializations but at least give us all the tools to start with.. if I were playing solo (hell I'm having trouble in multiplayer) it would be impossible to fix weapons if you cannot get stone and logs. And forget about getting at least a decent amount of skill points/day without good food (meaning you need a bow, too!). The basic necessities should be given to us from the start (of course by using our skill points)... I currently have the hammer and ax.. I'm going to need 38 skill points to get a shovel, bow or pickaxe.. I'm only earning 22.2/day! That will literally take almost 48 real life hours to earn.. No one wants to grind that much just to have a little fun in this game!
Is it the same as 6.3 in terms of server control? As whoever makes the server can control the rate skill costs increase at
But yes i agree the normal settings for it are too low. Same idea with clearing wood pulp up. It shouldnt take more calories to clean up some debris than it does to cut the actual tree.... Personally i think that the debris should be cleanable by hand and almost 0 calorie cost. Or atleast half that as cutting a log
Yes. You can change several settings in the server for skill rate cost including reducing or even eliminating the penalty for switching to a new tier of skills. Call it a mod perhaps, but the changes are minor and don't need programming... just changing the configuration files with a minor tweak.
Could you possibly go into more detail on a 50 point house layout, in the age of specialisations I can't afford to experiment with furniture and higher tier materials.