Aggriculture, how it works ?


  • Hello Every body im starting this topic cause there are a few things that are still very unclear to me,
    maybe nobody knows, maybe some body figured it out or maybe we need eco developers to point us in the right direction.

    What we know, crop seeds, can be planted on Tilled soil, and need specific conditions to grow faster and have a higer yield,
    1: Temprature match.
    2: Total Soil moisture.
    these 2 are easy and we can all figure it out, and so far the result is, a faster growth rate and a bit better yield i would say.

    3: Nitrogen,Phosphorus,potassium. these are the 3 substances in the soil, i believe the ration affect the yield a crop gives.
    but there are so many numbers to go on, with out a litle basic info, i dont think many people will be able to figure it out the rules to apply the logic in what value's effect what, so the know what soil is good or bad, what type of fertilizer's to add to grow what kinda crops.

    I'l post a immage here with 2 pieces of land close to eachother of Beets growing with temprature/soil moisture almost the same but not the nutrition in the soil. giving difrent result in overall growth time and overall yield rate,

    how to read the Nitrogen/Phosphorus/Potassium, C - P - D - B,

    soil samples.png

    I hope some body can explain the puzzle how to affect the growth/yield rate in a logical way.

    Talk, Play, Laugh, Teach, Learn.


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  • If you use your soil tester in areas where let say wheat is growing on the server. that will tell you what the soil for that plant type you will ruffly try to match. So say you wanted to grow corn. Find a spot on your server with lots of it growing naturally test some of the soil around that zone. What the tester reads in that area will be the soil specs you will need to grow the corn efficiently.

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    Nick
    AKA Alderone
    ECO WASTE Server
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  • This information was never actually meant to be displayed in that way; I'll definitely be reformatting to make it readable and, perhaps, change some of whats shown.

    C is the current value of the land.
    P is the predicted value in the next tick (10 minutes).
    D is the delta, or change in value, per tick before regen and area checking.
    B is the base value which the current will approach up to if the delta is not greater than the regen.

    Having too much nutrients is bad for a plant, as is not having enough. It was an intentional decision to not display that information to encourage experimentation, however that may change in the future.

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  • Thanks for explaining the value's this makes farming and fertilizer's so mutch more undertandable.
    I now see why things did or dident work and why ingame, and how the effect area's in long term.
    like droping 20fertilizer on 1 piece of land effecting a whole area in a circle radious for +-20-40 and not just 1 block of land .;)

    Talk, Play, Laugh, Teach, Learn.



  • @craig.jong said:

    This information was never actually meant to be displayed in that way; I'll definitely be reformatting to make it readable and, perhaps, change some of whats shown.

    C is the current value of the land.
    P is the predicted value in the next tick (10 minutes).
    D is the delta, or change in value, per tick before regen and area checking.
    B is the base value which the current will approach up to if the delta is not greater than the regen.

    Having too much nutrients is bad for a plant, as is not having enough. It was an intentional decision to not display that information to encourage experimentation, however that may change in the future.

    So i've been trying to figure out agriculture and fertilizers in general. This info helped a lot... but i still have so many questions...

    Alderone made a good point about sampling wild plants. I went out and did just that and quickly found that a few of my nutes were highish near my camp. Ferts are obviously additive, but is there any way to reduce nutrients in the soil? Is there a way to flood the farmland to reduce nutes? We haven't set up any aqueducts yet so haven't had a chance to test it, just curious if thats a thing or am i just stuck with over nuted soil?



  • This does help to a degree, but I am finding it so difficult to figure out what nutrients I need to add. I found perfect temp and Moisture for my beets only have them at a 42% growth rate. I tried adding fertilizer but it doesn't seem to have made a difference.

    It would be nice if maybe there was a color coding letting you know like blue is low, Green is good and red is high.

    I am finding it so frustrating waiting 12 hours for beets to grow yet my corn is ready in about 3 hours. The beets are in perfect temp and moisture, while the corn if off a bit yet my corn is at 89% growth rate and the beets are at 43%.

    a color code would be nice Changing the color of the number rather than the text I am putting after

    Nitrogen: C(139.5) 'Green' P(151.3) 'Red'
    Phosphorus: C(114.5) 'Blue' P(133.5) 'Green'
    Potassium: C(176.5) 'Red' P(215.8) 'Red'

    Now I know that 176.5 may not be high but this was just an example of how it could make the process of using the correct fertilizers a bit easier, as it is even with something like that getting the soil above 90% will still probably be a challenge.

    or simple put something like this

    Nitrogen: C=Good P=High
    Phosphorus: C=Low P=Good
    Potassium: C=High P=Very high

    I play on a server with 21 other people, lets face it with that many active people farming is a must, I just wish it was a little easier to understand the nutrients.



  • What about moisture? if for example nitrogen is missing i can add it with a fertilizer but if the ground is too wet can i dry it somehow?



  • @Askardius said:

    What about moisture? if for example nitrogen is missing i can add it with a fertilizer but if the ground is too wet can i dry it somehow?

    that's what aqueducts are for. You use them to move water from fresh sources to your farm and it increases the soil moisture

    @toxxikz said:

    This does help to a degree, but I am finding it so difficult to figure out what nutrients I need to add. I found perfect temp and Moisture for my beets only have them at a 42% growth rate. I tried adding fertilizer but it doesn't seem to have made a difference.

    It would be nice if maybe there was a color coding letting you know like blue is low, Green is good and red is high.

    I am finding it so frustrating waiting 12 hours for beets to grow yet my corn is ready in about 3 hours. The beets are in perfect temp and moisture, while the corn if off a bit yet my corn is at 89% growth rate and the beets are at 43%.

    a color code would be nice Changing the color of the number rather than the text I am putting after

    Nitrogen: C(139.5) 'Green' P(151.3) 'Red'
    Phosphorus: C(114.5) 'Blue' P(133.5) 'Green'
    Potassium: C(176.5) 'Red' P(215.8) 'Red'

    Now I know that 176.5 may not be high but this was just an example of how it could make the process of using the correct fertilizers a bit easier, as it is even with something like that getting the soil above 90% will still probably be a challenge.

    or simple put something like this

    Nitrogen: C=Good P=High
    Phosphorus: C=Low P=Good
    Potassium: C=High P=Very high

    I play on a server with 21 other people, lets face it with that many active people farming is a must, I just wish it was a little easier to understand the nutrients.

    I like the idea, but i think you might be a little confused about the numbers. For all intents and purposes, we shouldn't even know anything other than C (current value of the soil) from the soil sampler. P is just the next projected change to the soil, which a sampler wouldn't really be able to tell you, D is just the delta of that change, and B is the base value of the land that the block will naturally try to return to, which in reality you would just sample the ground where you haven't ferted to get a good estimate.

    But yes, definitely something to help indicate the status of the plants. Crops in really life have very obvious warning signs that they are getting too many or not enough nutrients. They'll start yellowing, they'll have poor structure development causing droops, etc.

    Infographics YAY!



  • @Askardius said:

    What about moisture? if for example nitrogen is missing i can add it with a fertilizer but if the ground is too wet can i dry it somehow?

    oh nvm... i just read your comment again... mah bad bruh lol



  • Yeah the problem is more, that our server is dripping wet ^^



  • @Lhamabomb , I understand the idea behind the numbers and you are correct in the real world there would be physical signs with the plants and not numbers, but the difficult part is how do you show that in the game. I guess you could litterally program the plants to show up in different shades depending on soil, but that's a lot of if else and conditional formating with so many possible variables.

    Here is an example of two of my beans 2 blocks apart

    bean1 new final.jpg

    bean2 new final.jpg

    What I can tell from this is the bean in the first pic is doing better than the bean in the second pic. From the looks of it the bean in the second picture has more Nitrogen and that is probably a contributing factor as to why it is not doing as good. But how do I determine what the nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium should be for this plant. I understand the numbers and the current compared to the future state at the next tick there is no change. Now i did add fertilizer to the second one which is why it has a higher nitrogen compared to the base value. But come to find out that means the nitrogen is too high and i shouldn't have added the fertilizer that I did. I will have to experiment more with other fertilizers to do the same for the other two nutrients, but if I add fertilizer and find out that they are now too high as well, how do i lower the nutrients? In the real world you cut the soil with un-enriched soil, I am not sure how to do that in this game. I have looked at all of the fertilizers and they all increase all three nutrients, none that say increase nitrogen and phosphorus while lowering potassium, or vice versa. This makes it hard to find the right fertilizer as well because while raising one you are also forced to raise the others slightly making it more difficult to fine tune the soil.

    Don't get me wrong i like the experimenting to find what works, it has kept me busy while waiting on skill points to generate, which it almost seems like the food i am making is barely keeping me at decent skill/day, I am not sure how i am supposed to provide the food for everyone else on my server as it seems by time my crops have grown and I make food I am using most of it to keep my calories up enough to continue progressing and don't really have enough to provide to others. The smithing and Masonry specialist on my server only play a few minutes a day because they are constantly burning through calories at the high rate due to cost of materials while I am not able to provide enough food to keep them going for very long before I am having to wait on crops again to make more food. I suppose they could drop to about 30-40 skill/day and just eat a lot of raw vegetables to have the calories to keep going but then that slows the progress of the server as i am now waiting 2 days to get the 32 mortared stone to expand for baking because everyone else is putting in the same orders for what they need and the masonry specialist is just burning through too many calories too quickly to supply us all, while I am not able to keep up with the demand for food to keep their skills per day at a decent rate.

    The other specializations are dependent on me for food, but feeding them all is a bit taxing, and most of them don't want to drop back to 30 skill/day, and even if they did the amount of raw food they would need to eat would deplete the entire planet of crops way too quickly.

    i could talk more about balancing out the supply demand balance but I already wrote a book. But for specializing in farming and food I am falling short on my server and people are now only playing a few minutes a day when they can get the food to keep their skills/day up without burning through so many calories that they completely deplete the food I am able to make. it is becoming where we don't have specialist anymore because the specialist aren't on long enough and I am having to take on masonry and smithing to get my oven and stove and kitchen because they aren't on enough to be dependable and I am waiting days for them before I can actually progress.

    The key takeaway is the server runs on calories and supply for those calories, but when farming takes hours to supply someone with the calories they burn through in 15 mins it just seems unbalanced as far as the need for calories and the need for materials. Now everyone doesn't need 200 skill/day, but they need enough to be able to increase efficiency enough to not burn through calories so fast if that makes sense.



  • @Askardius I agree in order to grow camas bulbs I have to go to the opposite side of the planet and even at that they barely grow and take 12 hours lol, moisture is a problem. most crops are below 50% moisture for ideal but like 80% of the server is above 50%



  • @toxxikz said:

    @Lhamabomb , I understand the idea behind the numbers and you are correct in the real world there would be physical signs with the plants and not numbers, but the difficult part is how do you show that in the game. I guess you could litterally program the plants to show up in different shades depending on soil, but that's a lot of if else and conditional formating with so many possible variables.

    Here is an example of two of my beans 2 blocks apart

    bean1 new final.jpg

    bean2 new final.jpg

    What I can tell from this is the bean in the first pic is doing better than the bean in the second pic. From the looks of it the bean in the second picture has more Nitrogen and that is probably a contributing factor as to why it is not doing as good. But how do I determine what the nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium should be for this plant. I understand the numbers and the current compared to the future state at the next tick there is no change. Now i did add fertilizer to the second one which is why it has a higher nitrogen compared to the base value. But come to find out that means the nitrogen is too high and i shouldn't have added the fertilizer that I did. I will have to experiment more with other fertilizers to do the same for the other two nutrients, but if I add fertilizer and find out that they are now too high as well, how do i lower the nutrients? In the real world you cut the soil with un-enriched soil, I am not sure how to do that in this game. I have looked at all of the fertilizers and they all increase all three nutrients, none that say increase nitrogen and phosphorus while lowering potassium, or vice versa. This makes it hard to find the right fertilizer as well because while raising one you are also forced to raise the others slightly making it more difficult to fine tune the soil.

    Don't get me wrong i like the experimenting to find what works, it has kept me busy while waiting on skill points to generate, which it almost seems like the food i am making is barely keeping me at decent skill/day, I am not sure how i am supposed to provide the food for everyone else on my server as it seems by time my crops have grown and I make food I am using most of it to keep my calories up enough to continue progressing and don't really have enough to provide to others. The smithing and Masonry specialist on my server only play a few minutes a day because they are constantly burning through calories at the high rate due to cost of materials while I am not able to provide enough food to keep them going for very long before I am having to wait on crops again to make more food. I suppose they could drop to about 30-40 skill/day and just eat a lot of raw vegetables to have the calories to keep going but then that slows the progress of the server as i am now waiting 2 days to get the 32 mortared stone to expand for baking because everyone else is putting in the same orders for what they need and the masonry specialist is just burning through too many calories too quickly to supply us all, while I am not able to keep up with the demand for food to keep their skills per day at a decent rate.

    The other specializations are dependent on me for food, but feeding them all is a bit taxing, and most of them don't want to drop back to 30 skill/day, and even if they did the amount of raw food they would need to eat would deplete the entire planet of crops way too quickly.

    i could talk more about balancing out the supply demand balance but I already wrote a book. But for specializing in farming and food I am falling short on my server and people are now only playing a few minutes a day when they can get the food to keep their skills/day up without burning through so many calories that they completely deplete the food I am able to make. it is becoming where we don't have specialist anymore because the specialist aren't on long enough and I am having to take on masonry and smithing to get my oven and stove and kitchen because they aren't on enough to be dependable and I am waiting days for them before I can actually progress.

    The key takeaway is the server runs on calories and supply for those calories, but when farming takes hours to supply someone with the calories they burn through in 15 mins it just seems unbalanced as far as the need for calories and the need for materials. Now everyone doesn't need 200 skill/day, but they need enough to be able to increase efficiency enough to not burn through calories so fast if that makes sense.

    About your final point:

    I see that as a realistic bottleneck though... Think about it IRL.

    Wake up (login)
    Get some breakfast (replenish offline calorie loss)
    Go to work (calorie burn)
    Lunch (burn replenishment)
    2nd half of work (2nd cal burn)
    Relaxing at home (can't think of a good comparison, so we'll just call this anything that doesn't use calories, like spend skills, managing workbenches, etc.)

    IRL, you don't just keep eating and working all day, but rather than put in a fatigue meter, the players are slowed down by the amount of food the world produces... much like irl. Rich, bountiful countries have a much easier time of things than impoverished ones.

    Might i suggest hiring some farmhands on your server and increasing your field size?



  • @toxxikz

    Also, in regards to your specialists not being around to make stuff for you. Personally, i make a list of the things i need, try to get the raw mats or processed stuff, and jump the specialists i need as they log in lol. All they have to do is push the button. :D



  • @Lhamabomb The problem is catching them when they are on, sometimes it 3 and 4 days before we are on at the same time, and again getting the raw materials without efficiencies in those specializations burns through more calories again and then again i am back to i can barely create enough food as it is, hiring farmhands that aren't specialized creates a much lower crop yield and again makes food an even shorter supply. I have tried to encourage the other players to invest points in farming but they say they are having enough trouble with getting efficient in their own specialization that they can't afford to and that's what they have me for is the farming.

    So what you're saying is that the lack of food is intentional to slow down the progression of the servers? good luck beating the meteor, isn't that kind of the point of the game progress and beat the meteor but see what the effects are on your Eco system, start over try again and try to be more eco conscious and make progress each time to having a more healthy planet?



  • This needs to be repurposed for the wiki agriculture page: https://eco.gamepedia.com/Agriculture

    Can anyone take this on?



  • @toxxikz said:

    @Lhamabomb The problem is catching them when they are on, sometimes it 3 and 4 days before we are on at the same time, and again getting the raw materials without efficiencies in those specializations burns through more calories again and then again i am back to i can barely create enough food as it is, hiring farmhands that aren't specialized creates a much lower crop yield and again makes food an even shorter supply. I have tried to encourage the other players to invest points in farming but they say they are having enough trouble with getting efficient in their own specialization that they can't afford to and that's what they have me for is the farming.

    So what you're saying is that the lack of food is intentional to slow down the progression of the servers? good luck beating the meteor, isn't that kind of the point of the game progress and beat the meteor but see what the effects are on your Eco system, start over try again and try to be more eco conscious and make progress each time to having a more healthy planet?

    Reminder, it's still in alpha, there's probably still some (read: a metric ton) of balancing to be done. But again, this mechanic very much simulates real life.



  • @Lhamabomb actually I am amazed at how good this is in Alpha, it's very polished for an Alpha and I know there will still be many changes coming. I really enjoying playing this game quite a bit and i hope nothing i have said was offensive, it was never meant to offend, I am just trying to work through how I could spend a few hours at a time in 5.4 and in 5.5 it seems like 20 mins and I am having to wait for everything to finish. IRL I don't spend a lot of time waiting, there is always something I could be doing, it just doesn't seem that way in the game, maybe i just need to be more patient and wait till i have my specialization filled out so that I can start working on other specializations.

    Any way I am looking forward to future changes and I do know that everyone is working hard to make this the best educational game they can and I do appreciate all of the hard work and hours you put into this. I do have to say agriculture has come a long ways already and sorry for me ranting and raving....it is alpha after all and it is a great game, that I have been able to convince my minecraft buddies to play instead of minecraft hehe.



  • man this is very confusing, it would be nice if it could be better explained on how/what to fertilize as well as being able to manipulate the temp/moisture to grow anything you want wherever you are.

    @toxxikz our farmer is constantly busy and we are never in short supply of food, good hunting/recipe for the fire. Now mind you we are only at 65-70sp/day. lol maybe you should come over and help us out :-p

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  • @stormoffires honestly on my server i now have about 180 per day and once I got more efficient at farming and cooking it was much easier, I don't find any fault in the end game farming and cooking it is spot on and I am now able to provide much better food, I guess it's just at the start it just costs so much (and you deplete the world food supplies quickly especially since it appears that animals are not reproducing and the numbers are dropping quick)), but a few people on my server have been more active and the demand for food has been going up quite a bit. I have farms going pretty good but when you have 5 people all coming at you every 10 minutes for food that takes 10 mins to make you start falling short again. I am hoping they get their efficiencies up quickly so they are not using as much food but one can only hope.

    @Lhamabomb I am very pleased with farming and cooking once I got the efficiencies up, glad I had a lot of seeds because all of the beans on the planet are gone except what I am farming but I have increased my farm and it is doing much better. I do understand now how the curve from beginner to expert farmer and cooker was designed and while it may seem frustrating at first it feels very satisfying once you get there. Like i mentioned above, now if I can only convince the others on my server to start putting more skills into efficiencies that would make all the difference, but they are trying to progress through the profession as quick as they can and not realizing how they are depleting the resources by not using efficiencies earlier on.



  • @stormoffires also let your food merchant know that with making campfire stew and wild stew you can get to between 130-140 a day from what you're saying that would double your sp/day

    try to eat it at a 2 Campfire to 1 wild give or take here and there and you should be able to reasonably stay at about 130 or higher. Also the stews provide 1200 calories each. Now that I am efficient at farming and cooking I can come close to getting all of the vegetables for the stews from one plant each per stew.... hunting and butchering I am still working on getting more efficient but you also can get the speed up so you can make a stew in 2 mins.

    If you have 6 campfires going and you do your hunting and butchering once a day you could easily be making 3 of each stew at a time and only need about 20 plots of farmland per vegetable to produce about 60 stews an hour, that is if the crops are grown with a 75% growth rate or better.


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