Building and Mining

  • Hi,
    I want to know how mining and building works.
    Will I be able to terraform the world like in minecraft (like surface mining) or (the way I would prefer) have I to digg mineshafts (witch would prevent ugly holes in the world)?
    I read that that the buildings will be fix but I can fashion it a bit. Does this mean all blacksmiths will basicly look the same? Maybe it would be better to say you can build quit freely but if it should be a blacksmith it have to have a anvil and a forge.
    And will I be able to automate stuff? I imagen it would be boring if you need 200 nails or is crafting instant?


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  • "Maybe it would be better to say you can build quit freely but if it should be a blacksmith it have to have a anvil and a forge."

    Per kickstart campaign: "When a player constructs a building, they can designate its type (whether its a home, school, lumber mill, bakery, etc). If it meets the criteria (size and construction material) it will then give special abilities to anyone who occupies it."

    So its just a matter of meeting some basic parameters and then you can change anything that doesn't break those conditions.

  • Maybe we could have it so you need to have multiple people involved in the construction and raw material harvesting aspects of the game (ie, a certain number of people are needed to engage in an activity or provide some support to the construction of the buildings, objects, and the harvesting of raw materials)? This would add a need to cooperate in the game that could be made close to real life with various numbers of specialists being needed to do things, thus encouraging specialization, cooperation, and the possibility of defection, sabotage, or poor crafstmanship that plagues real world scenarios. If this is too complicated to program, please let me know. Hope this helps!

  • I don't think that it is a good idea to force a presents of more then 1 player for something. If I'm working on my (Inser something here) and I have to interrupt it on a regular base to help someone or have to wait until I have enough helper I would quit after a short amount of time.
    An alternativ would be to incloud in every thing things from as much as skilltrees as possible.
    For example if I want to build a houseI need wood from the carpenter nails from the blacksmith and stones from the stonecutter. (If I look at the shop-system I think that is the way they wanted to go anyway.)

  • The alternative would be a good idea for simplicity's sake, but I'm thinking of this as a more collaborative thing. In World of Warcraft, you need to develop teams of people in order to do certain instances. My proposal would be that construction would be similar to the instance model, in that you need to get teams of people together and provide an incentive to work together (even though everything would be in the same unsharded universe). I hope this clarifies my line of thinking.

    Just out of curiosity, has anyone played EVE Online? That model may yield some good design features that we could add into our own game.

  • @Killerfurby33 & @Deus ,

    I like both your points on this and i believe i have a solution: <b>Scale (Material Gain) vs. Completion Time (Action Time)</b>.
    Okay i'll further explain: Say you want to start harvesting resources i believe it could go like <b>A:</b> Solo: you find a spot within a designated mining zone and set to work. The amount of materials harvested and the time it takes would depend on the individual skill level you have in those actions. <b>B</b>: Group: the combined skill lvl's of those working in a 'team' would enable the effort to yeild more of something, more quickly.

    I feel this approach would both satisfy the 'Soloist' and the 'Groups' by enabling someone acting independent to still be able to do things for themselves without depending entirely on others, thus the increase in specific skills would show greatest results. At the same time, if you were in a group or 'team' their combined skill levels for a given action would have as much (if not more) weight to it that the specialist acting solo, thus enabling those that don't specifically want to specialize in a given skill to still collaborate with others to achieve the end result of gaining resources at a given pace.

    This model would allow for specialists to act independent where they wished but also reward collaboration of individuals working together for a common goal. Given that, the specialist would still be valued / requested to work in 'teams' by others as their 'weight' of skills would increase the over all production of materials greatly, even more so if it was a 'team' of all specialists acting together (as this would have the greatest effect of the combined skill levels). I can see this being extremely present when the infrastructure of a given operation (i.e. you develop new mining equipment, well its going to take a certain skill level to operate it) requires those specialized (skilled enough) for certain aspects (i.e. operating cranes / loading equipment) and those not so specialized (but still needing that resource) (could be the haulers / miners (especially if stats are worked into this (i.e. more str over dex or int where required and whatnot))).
    This would also make sense for storefronts and trades where someone not wanted to devote any skill points to the given actions could trade for materials / labor of those that do or could produce.

    This same model could work for projects such as building a house. As you mentioned, as an individual you could acquire the necessary materials from storefronts or other individuals without having to harvest (or needing the skill to do so) and work on building your house yourself. This way will take longer because... well, your building a house without help, it just does. OR if you had multiple people helping out it wouldn't take as long to do so because well more hands working on more than 1 thing at a given time just makes things faster. (Again if a 'team' was formed and you utilized the combined skill set of those collaborating it would overall be greater than the individual, but not outright required).

    This in my opinion would be the best way to go for Skill mastery / Collaboration Control / Resource Harvesting / Project Planning, where when available a specialist could fill-in on given works in progress or resource gathering adding their 'weight' of skills to the mix and where such requirements as skill levels exists, yet also allow for those not specialized to the same extent the ability to complete the same works and harvesting by working together as a collective unit.

    This would both award the Soloist who wants to specialize, and the Grouper who may not be specialized in the right skill for the action required, to both work at their own pace and desired skill sets without being impeded by lack of labor or skill. At a given time, the individual could participate in the collective effort, or focus on personal gain without falling to far behind the rest. Of course the more people work together the better, but you can't deny the individual whim.

  • @killerfurby33 that's right, to do any significant building you'll need many specialized skills, more than a single person can get, and thus you'll need to lean on the player-run economy, buying goods and hiring labor to get things done. Collaboration is the name of the game, and the economy system is what makes it efficient, allowing you to arrange shared labor and resource usage without even being online at the same time (by selling contracts, stores, etc)

    @cr4zyc4t I like the idea. I like the idea of players being able to 'teach' skills to other, and this kind of does that. I hope to get similar effects through the economy, where players can contract skilled laborers, thus 'sharing' their skill in a way. Ill think about this.

  • @cr4zyc4t Yeah something like this would be great.

  • What if players could build schools and learn skills through them also, and the school would have to be taught by someone with whatever given skill was being taught. Might be a interesting idea...

  • Will players be able to construct landscape? For example, flatten some landscape and build a decorative garden with a pond, or even a zoo habitat. Or better yet - roof top gardening! Or building up the landscape around a waste storage facility to give animals some space to roam.

    I would love to build a city where all the buildings are underground.

  • On the subject of mining and specialists. As an example let's say that you have a player who only does mining from day one on the server. It would be a good idea to add in the need for structural supports for mines being necessary so that you have miners needing help from others in the sense that if a miner doesn't have a carpenter come in and build the supports for his mine tunnels he could risk having the ceiling collapse on him. It also will give appreciation of what a miner is doing. From personal experience I have had people talk smack about me when I have donever nothing but mining. Most players who have no interest in mining will usually not understand how much work a miner is doing and if this kind of a system were to be used it would get these types of groups involved with one another. Just some food for thought.

  • +1 for @cr4zyc4t 's and @Tony_Tripin 's ideas (if mining will actually work that way)

  • Will players be able to process generated waste? I.e. harvest waste to reduce it , thus reducing it's impact, and also turn it into a material which can be reused or converted to a form which can be better managed.

    Of course the type of waste would then be important. You wouldn't be able to, for example, convert radioactive waste as you would general household waste.

    E.g. You harvest food waste from a building/town and send it to a farmer who then converts it to compost for improving crop yields or food for a worm/snail farm. For a person who wants to traverse an agricultural path, which supports others who take on a more technological route, the ability to reuse materials to make it produce food, and incorporating ideas like permaculture, would be a valued member of a community as they reduce waste and produce food.

  • +1 for @stuvik
    You could either have each skill process its own waste, like a farmer processes food waste, or there could be a dedicated skill for this, like salvage. The higher the skill, the more that can be reclaimed from a source and the more advanced wastes that could be reclaimed.

  • Waste recycling will be a thing, basically youll have to do a lot of thinking about what happens with the waste products you make, and how do you transport large amounts of materials, as both of those will affect the environment a lot.

  • @cr4zyc4t @killerfurby33 @Deus @JohnK

    Reading over all the replies makes me giddy about the prospect this game has to offer. I have to ask the question will the game be more like a realistic simulation? or Are you going for the Video Game feel. Like suppose someone starts day one and they want to be a Smith. As a smith (Solo Player) You'd have to develop some lumber skill, Stone skill, and mining skill? Now the question is are you allowed to master every skill. In a real life situation you physically can't master every skill. Like if you want to devote your efforts into physical skills instead of per say a cooking skill or Archery (archery is somewhat physical but you get what I'm saying)

    ^great poll topic! Can a person master all trades? or will the jack of all trades never master any.

  • @Leroy_D
    I think it wouldn't be a good idea to dictate this onto players. Several friends of mine are pretty hyped for ECO - but consider it to be played in completely different ways:
    Some of them would like to play it with people they're currently playing Diablo with: 2-8 players
    Some want to play it in a slightly bigger community, comparable to a mediumish Minecraft server: 10-30 players
    The last but not least group sees it as an actual social experiment which should be scaled up to servers with 100-1000+ players

    As far as I can tell, all of these are part of the 'targeted audience', hence setting it into stone would either make it too hard for the first or too easy for the last mentioned group. Therefore I think of a configurable solution as the way to go. For example, when setting up the server, the admin can set a skill point multiplier based on the expected amount of players. A hidden skill point multiplier based on the player slots count of the server would be another way. I'm not really a fan of either solution, but I'm sure we'll figure out a reasonable solution.

    Due to this topic not being actually related to the initial topic of the thread, would a mod mind to move this discussion into a new one?

  • @illoOminated +1

    The ideas and support of the comunity is great and there are many people who think about a complex and realistic game, but i wan't to add two points:
    1- You have to think about the aspect of education(and for this goal strangeloopgames got a lot of money, so it has to work). This game will be used in the middle-school and there should be the main aspect the ecosystem and economy. The childreen can't play the whole day to understand playing the game.
    2- there is a team of 8 developers and they won't work all day ;). Everything that make the game more complex is A LOT of work for the team.

    -> don't stop making great discussions and make this game more interesting with your ideas, but maybe you have to bring them in the game by yourself with modding :) etc.

  • @illoOminated I get what you're saying, people (most likely) will be able to host their own servers and can set the values to what they wish. However I disagree that this is off topic. The Op asked about building and mining, the fact is none of us have seen the Code except the devs. So we don't technically know. However in relation to building and mining I'm assuming skills will be the foundation of these aspects (If not mining being a skill itself -if the game even has scale-able skills.)

    There's a flow chart to how buildings are set up in the slack, but I haven't been able to pull anything technical from posting there. As a community of people I think this Pre-alpha discussion is good for bonding and getting to know each others personality and goals for the duration of this project Oct 2015-TBA. @TaminoSch +Spirit

  • @Leroy_D I seen posted <i>somewhere </i>(I'm thinking it was posted in this forum by JohnK) that any skill continuously increases (with diminishing returns). So one skill is <b>never "mastered"</b>. It is anticipated that most players will become proficient in several skills. A typical server is not intended to continue for long enough for you to become proficient in all skills.
    It was also noted that skills continue to grow while the player is off-line. Your character will remain in the world "doing" what you left it doing.
    Food plays a big role in skills increasing.

    I infer that the key to building skills is to remain nutritiously well fed, and in the building that lets you do the skill you want to grow in.
    I suppose in this case an activly dedicated player could "solo" by using multiple accounts :P

  • @Leroy_D I agree in pretty much every point, yet I think you might have misunderstood - I don't think the Skill discussion is off topic in terms of 'not game-related', but rather in terms of 'belonging to a different thread'. I know they are closely linked and I thought there was a specific 'Skills' thread already - a quick forum search proved me wrong, though. Sorry 'bout that.

    In my opinion, this is one of the major flaws of classic forums - so many topics are closely entwined but discussed with different scopes. Yet you somehow want to keep them together. Haven't found a tag-based forum (clustering tags into discussions), though, and I'm not sure whether or how it would work out. Anyways, btt.

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