How Anti-Grief is Eco?


  • Hello,

    Love the idea, saw the video on facebook, looked into it a bit more, it seems like a very mature sandbox game with crazy potential. I'm still 50/50 though in terms of whether my system can handle it and how toxic it will allow players to be?

    The worst thing we've probably all found with online games of this nature is that people love to destroy as much as they can, particularly when it comes to bases. I'm wondering how protected our homes would be ? it's incredibly disheartening to log back on and find someone has randomly destroyed everything you built for no real reason other than the potential joy they feel at griefing.

    In my experience the online community is fairly toxic unless you're with friends, what safeguards are there? The laws look good and are a very nice idea - but I assume it will just come down to the server rules? As a rule of thumb I tend to play with 5-6 friends and we build our little projects together, but it would be nice to know there's something bigger that we can join and enjoy without someone destructive barreling through everything that's been created.

    Love the concept though!


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  • I know you can claim plots of land as your own, not sure if that makes it so people cannot break your things or not. I know you can lock your doors, and authorize people on your deeds tho.



  • ECO will have one MASSIVE issue when it releases to one wider audience (Early Access)...
    ...Unintended and Intended griefing will be a massive issue.

    ECO just changes the board, you don't grief other players... you "grief" the world. Bunch of new players easily savage the world out of resources before even understanding how the game is meant to be played (unintentional grief), and the intentional one will likely be still against the world to affect all the players on the world.

    The laws can be a double-edge sword for me; after a world starts and laws start getting approved, all new players that join the server will face one harsher start; imagine tree limitation laws with a new player trying to build the starter hut... can take days.



  • exactly what maxbacon said.
    killing any sort of plant or animal towards extinction, polluting oceans, rivers, the world. these are things (and this isnt a complete list) that new players could do while they try to figure out how the game works, before they even begin to realize that a mistake could have been done.
    this is unintentional. the intentional grief would be all this but amplified both in intensity and rapidity.

    claims?
    you cant claim the entire world and for a longterm game it's the entire world you need to protect and not just your backyard.

    laws?
    laws help to some extent, but can also backfire pretty hard. ive seen a server trying to save camas from extinction by limiting camas harvest, which essentially disabled camas from the game, because you couldnt harvest them effectively to make use of em. just one example.

    laws in its current state are obtainable too late, permanent and exceptionless. even with a team that knows what it's doing you need a couple of days to be able to set laws. by then your world could be ruined. gov/admins should be able to remove laws. but most importantly: laws need to be more dynamic. why am i restricted to harvest 1 camas a day when i made my very own camas farm of 100 blocks on my own property? you can kill 5 elks per day BUT ONLY IF you have hunting yield rank 3, otherwise you are allowed to kill 1 elk per day. nobody is allowed to cut any trees down.. unless they planted equal amounts of tree seeds that day. just some examples of how dynamic laws could look like.

    IMO without grief protection (intentional or not) this should not go into early access/steam. public servers would likely be dead within 2 days. everyone would whitelist their servers. new players would have a harder time finding active servers. honest players would get frustated very fast. it would overall be a bad start for the public community and for some that sticks.

    the current community is small, i have not met anyone who deliberately tried to destroy anything. most players are open to the aspect of preserving the ecosystem and are trying to work together to achieve this.
    but i also have played enough of these kind of games to know that not everyone wants to play the same way. some like to exploit resources without looking back.. or further than the next day and it's their right to do so... but maybe they shouldnt have that right on every server.
    and then ofc there are the kind of people that like to intentionally destroy things just because.

    so.. to get to the tl:dr:
    bugfixes and content are important, but the permission mechanics (just gonna call it that for now) needs some love too!



  • @panisch yeah needs to exist ways to fight that back before the player base is expanded, so stuff can be kept stable. I think the game firstly needs a learning curve for new players be introduced and understand the game and the objective of what they are doing; that will help.

    The learning curve is important. More specific griefing stuff will be a more complex matter, there's many ways to do something even without impacting any claims, simply impacting the world; so not sure what is going to happen there. I can imagine on this game servers will be more restricted in access to maintain the best stability.



  • I agree with you guys-it seems like there's a huge potential for grief in ECO, intentional or unintentional. I've started to play on several servers, only to realize that an entire resource is extinct (like wheat...). It can totally throw off a game. It seems like the law system and the property system are the ways to address that right now-one of the points of ECO is to created a sort of miniature society within the game. It's very similar to real life, in that way.

    Perhaps one option is to make servers that are initially whitelisted with a core team, but then become open to the public. That way certain laws are established and resources are cultivated before potential griefers enter the world. That could give some breathing room and help mitigate the damage from those who may mean ill.

    Another way could be to make the world bigger. Not sure if there's a direct correlation between world size and the speed with which resources re-populate currently--but if so, that's a great way to cushion damaging effects of new/mean players. On the other hand, that might kind of defeat the purpose of learning how to live in balance with an ECOsystem. On the other hand, maybe it would help balance the beginning of the game and make the late-game more difficult.

    One way to mitigate unintentional damage is to create a tutorial/training for new players; although I'm sure that's planned for the future. The classroom would be a great environment to introduce the concepts of conservation before the beginning of a game.
    However it happens, I think ECO will make it very interesting to solve these problems.



  • @Baneofpuppies I have an idea for stopping plants from going extinct! Make a huge (Well not huge if you don't want it to be) area that you claim, and use it as an area where no one can kill them. Then, you can sell the seeds at a tremendous profit of stuff, then soon after that, THE ENTIRE WORLD might HAVE A BUNCH OF WHEAT BACK! :D I think this isn't a bad idea

    I love Norway!



  • @Cute-Little-Froggy haha yes, that is an idea that is actually well executed in society today. The biggest farming corporations in the world make huge profits off the sale of food to the rest of the world.
    I think one of the useful lessons ECO can teach is how driving up your prices for profit can affect the world around you. If people can't afford what you sell, or they just barely get by, that might not be enough to help society advance in order to prevent the next natural disaster.
    In ECO, there has to be a balance between hording plants for your own profit and making them available to all other players so that the world can advance together.
    That said, I think that growing wheat on your own farmland can indeed help prevent it from being destroyed...if you can do it in time!



  • @Baneofpuppies It could be something like the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Global_Seed_Vault/">Svalbard Seed Vault</a>

    I love Norway!



  • No hyperlink?

    I love Norway!



  • @Baneofpuppies Could something like the Svalbard Seed Bank work?

    I love Norway!



  • The one good way I can see to eliminate deliberate sabotage might be to have a 'waiting room' style area that forces you to spend half an hour to an hour going over various tasks like a gateway tutorial, learning server laws/rules, maybe have a bio written by the server owner and contributors etc. since I imagine each server will have it's own fairly distinct flavor. That way people don't quick hop to servers and ruin the ecosystem then jump onto the next etc. and it shows a certain amount of dedication to the whole process which is surely the point.

    I like the idea of claim flags - do you have different types? like if there's a law about harvesting but you claim a 'farmland plot' which means you can't make a fancy house beyond a little cottage but do have room to grow your crops or trees etc. and bypass limitation laws as you'd own the land? If not it could be something quite nifty like claiming forestry plots then applying for grants and so begin contributing to the server economy. I can see some servers really taking off and people forming trade alliances, lobbying for laws to increase land allocations/farming methods (What do you mean I can't have a nuclear powered juggernaught harvester?)/tech limitations - there's so much potential here!



  • @Rival I actually oppose that idea, the game is about learning. Learning what is right, and wrong (Pollution wise) If they do something wrong, they learn and then they learn how not to pollute. And the "Oh people will pollute intentionally" Will not matter, because a tutorial will not help, it just shows them how to do the opposite. But I get what you mean, and it's good in theory. But not everyone is perfect (In not griefing deliberately)

    I love Norway!



  • That's very true and I'm just speaking from experience and what turns me off MMOs more than anything is people going out of their way to make something decent into something toxic. I just think if you have to invest a bit of time at the start in some way before you're allowed to properly go into the world like a 'gated' project then the majority of short attention span troll types won't bother and you're more likely to get people who actually want to try something as a community.



  • Grief is as close to PVP as we're going to get with this, so changing up your plans and approach is a good thing not only for some one trying to grief but for the players on a planet trying to protect it.

    being able to trash a planet and screw everyone over could be fun for a lot of people. What would also be just as fun is if said person broke say 2/3 laws, it would allow anyone else to go over to their claim and destroy it. To keep this fun though the person braking the laws should also be able to defend their claim.

    Now I know this might annoy the hell out of players who want a more PVE role, but a server setting or description of this in the server lists would be nice.

    On the last server I played on I wanted to harvest all the important wild plant life then just sell it, as the player base is very low I quickly realised this was a bad idea, felt bad and ended up planting needed resources close to spawn.



  • I like your point about learning, @Cute-Little-Froggy . I think that ECO is the type of game where you're going to need to learn a lot and use your knowledge well in order to thrive. There's merit in having a tutorial-type introduction to new players on your server, but people who want to destroy will just destroy.
    I think that's one of the points of the proposed 'criminal justice' system, where players can be held responsible for their actions before they get out of hand. If a player breaks a couple of laws, then other players will have the ability to throw them into a jail or something.



  • theirs other issues also with the laws also but these are issues I ran into on servers I have played on and hosted publicly.

    number one issue i ran into is me and my friends run our own server I had it setup for public see if people would join there 5 of us who play friend wise well group of 6 came on passed bunch laws limiting people to only being able to collect 1 of each thing per 24 hour period.

    well law was passed and that was it that was law i had wipe the whole world and start over.

    this could happen on servers that are not controlled by you or your group so people could go on a server and get really bitch slapped with the laws.

    most people who play this game now and run there own servers and play in small groups tend to also white list so random people can not get on. that means alot of servers now only run with 1 2 or 3 4 people.

    there anther issue with public servers every time someone logs on and creats a person they get counted as pop even if there not really playing on server so you see servers with pop of like 20 or 30 people but only have 1 or two or 5 players constant.

    then people also just log in and grab claims around peoples homes making it so they cant do stuff then they leave never to play again.

    I think if game world was large enough mutil community could be great thing where different community have different laws in same world that would better represent the world as a whole in real life and it would also help with one of issues with people using laws to hurt others deliberately..

    the other thing for breaking laws the community who had there law broken should be able to fine that person with auto tax fro example you cut down 10 trees two many 70% of seeds you collected go to that town.

    or maybe death where you can order person to death and they have to start all over at start level zero and they lose control of all there stuff.

    throwing people in jail in this game for a x amount of time does not may not matter in this game due to fact that it rewards people for not playing it hands out skill points when your off line so people would just be like o well i am in jail big deal ill get out with more skill points anyways.

    if you had to earn skill points by playing game this might be different. because then time not playing means your not gaining experience meaning g your not learning anything and your able to do anything new latter on.



  • @Reconix said:

    On the last server I played on I wanted to harvest all the important wild plant life then just sell it, as the player base is very low I quickly realised this was a bad idea, felt bad and ended up planting needed resources close to spawn.

    Total, absolute dick move. People like you are the reason why the REAL world is a f****d as it is now



  • @Funky-Munky People like me is why the real world is f****d haha, I don't think so. This is a game where we all mess around with idea's and tactics, if you can't distinguish between a game and real life then I don't think you should play video games.

    But hey, let's not make it personal as I have no idea what you're like and you have zero idea what I'm like.



  • @Cute-Little-Froggy This forum seems to use Markdown styling. Also there's shortcuts above the text box for bold, italics, list item, hyperlink and upload file.



  • @Reconix language please! we have a younger audience here ;)


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